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Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Microsoft SQL Server

Poll SQL in The Cloud, in the next 5 years

All of our stuff will be in the cloud
0
No votes
Most of our stuff will be in the cloud
0
No votes
Only some stuff will be in the cloud
0
No votes
Hardly any of our stuff will be in the cloud
1
7%
None of our stuff will be in the cloud
12
92%
 
Total votes : 13

Please wait...

Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby SQLDenis on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:18 pm

What do you think will happen in the next 5 years

Please also leave a comment why you think this will happen

The reason of this poll is my post here: SQL Server In The Cloud Vaporware Or Inevitable?
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby ca8msm on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:58 pm

We are a private firm working for a public sector council; there is no way the council would allow us to have data stored anywhere else but on site.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby AlexCuse on Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:05 pm

hipaa
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby SQLDenis on Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:56 pm

Wow 80% say no
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby onpnt on Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:05 pm

87% now. Even if I didn't work for a pharmaceutical company I don't see the "cloud" hitting 10% of real life businesses that are product based and not technologically based. There's far too many issues that go with it making it about a 5 minute discussion on stability.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby gmmastros on Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:10 pm

I can't imagine a situation where I would put my database in the cloud. Also... I can't imagine my customers putting their data in the cloud either.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby chrissie1 on Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:07 pm

Not a chance in Hell. I think we would get fired on the spot and get to explain it in court too. We aren't even allowed to talk about cases if they have been in a public courtroom, that just shows how screwed the law is ;-).
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby Emtucifor on Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:29 am

I know of a company that has a "private cloud" for their customers. So it's not really in the cloud as in a generic storage place, but it sort of is in the cloud as their clients all connect to the application using Citrix over the internet. This I can see: when the cloud owner is the producer of the software. But that's a narrow application that probably doesn't apply most of the time.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby chrissie1 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:33 am

Emtucifor wrote:I know of a company that has a "private cloud" for their customers. So it's not really in the cloud as in a generic storage place, but it sort of is in the cloud as their clients all connect to the application using Citrix over the internet. This I can see: when the cloud owner is the producer of the software. But that's a narrow application that probably doesn't apply most of the time.


Oh that's right we could all build our own private clouds and that would mean we have them in the cloud.

Which cloud did you mean Denis?
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby onpnt on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:32 pm

Cloud = "Present day buzz word CTO's find amusing to force into stable and working environments with little thought and above all little intelligence"

I predict it will go as far as linq or nhibernate which was the next best thing until people saw how it actually worked. The only thing good that came out of it was some funny as hell podcasts of bash fests between object orientated developers and OO/database savvy developers.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby Emtucifor on Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:30 pm

I presume by "the cloud" he means: remotely stored on the internet.

No need for sarcasm :-p

From the customer's point of view, they're taking a risk buying in to a system where their data is not stored locally under their control. From their perspective, the data is "in the cloud."
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby AlexCuse on Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:48 pm

Ted, last time I checked Linq (presume you mean the "to SQL" variety) and NHibernate were doing alright ;) I've got a lot more to say about that, but this isn't the thread.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby onpnt on Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:09 am

Ted, last time I checked Linq (presume you mean the "to SQL" variety) and NHibernate were doing alright


No it isn't and never has with product based companies that have any kind of structure to them. Unless you're a one man IT shop that gets some god awful rights to slam the latest cool thing in or use whatever you want without review, technology based or just truly a bandwagon jumper with not to smart peers, the methods have not caught on and probably never will. The arguments for why not to even consider it are far greater than the pros. It's been drawn out hundreds of times by the best in our fields and from what I've read, listened to and discussed with other fairly high revenue companies IT groups it wasn't even a second thought after really discussing the performance and productivity issues. Productivity alone is trashed unless you are starting from scratch. The issues it causes on current day database servers are horrid as well.

But hey, if you've used it maybe it really has caught on ;)
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby AlexCuse on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:28 am

Haha, I had to try. I was hoping not to get started, but here goes.

I don't know if the performance issues are really an argument anymore (everything I've read suggests performance is roughly equivalent to stored procedures, I've never tested it against any db's at work though - less effort to just write stored procs). I have spoken with professors at school who work for an especially large organization and are some of the biggest proponents you could ever find for Hibernate. If you're blaming your performance problems on an ORM framework, either you're using an old framework or you're doing it wrong. You don't want to use your ORM to load and update a million rows, but if you need to get some objects to work with in your application the ORM will work just fine. So its' a poor choice for an application that does a ton of heavy data crunching, but for an application with a well conceived domain model that is primarily working with small chunks of data at a time (n)Hibernate would be a good choice. The main argument against an ORM in my mind is not performance (which I think is something of a red herring) but that its' not the kind of thing you can shoehorn into an existing system (well you could try, but I imagine it would end poorly in most cases). There's also the issue of security, but it sounds like Linq to SQL (and hopefully Entity Framework also) has pretty good support for stored procs, which would basically solve this issue (here's hoping the others get that nut cracked too). Its' certainly no worse than all the other applications out there with dbo rights building their own ad-hoc queries against the database.

Starting from scratch, I would definitely use some kind of ORM, and if I ran into performance issues anywhere adapt those sections to use stored procs, though this is primarily going to be an issue for bulk updates and such where I probably wouldn't use the ORM to begin with. I would also work it into an existing application with a database that closely mirrored my domain model. From a productivity standpoint, I think you're wasting a ton of time if you start working on a new system and you're writing ADO.net code (or JDBC).

For me, it really is just a matter of whether it fits with what you're trying to do or not. And since most of us work on established systems where the database doesn't really match the object model (and systems throughout the organization depending on this particular design), we know how that turns out.

Here's a link taken from Denis' last "links of the week" post that provides one DBA's perspective on LINQ to SQL, and he seems to have been pleasantly surprised - http://sqlblog.com/blogs/jonathan_kehay ... ebate.aspx. I imagine you would be too, but I still think its' pretty ridiculous to try to fit it into an many existing applications.

You can rail against ORM tools as much as you want, but think about where we would be now if everyone had taken the same attitude towards any number of technological advancements. The fact is that these tools have a lot of value as it is, and in the future they are only going to get better. And they're going to get more and more widely adopted as legacy systems are replaced.

I guess the question should be "Your cloud in the weeds??" ;)
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby chrissie1 on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:38 am

onpnt wrote:
Ted, last time I checked Linq (presume you mean the "to SQL" variety) and NHibernate were doing alright


No it isn't and never has with product based companies that have any kind of structure to them. Unless you're a one man IT shop that gets some god awful rights to slam the latest cool thing in or use whatever you want without review, technology based or just truly a bandwagon jumper with not to smart peers, the methods have not caught on and probably never will. The arguments for why not to even consider it are far greater than the pros. It's been drawn out hundreds of times by the best in our fields and from what I've read, listened to and discussed with other fairly high revenue companies IT groups it wasn't even a second thought after really discussing the performance and productivity issues. Productivity alone is trashed unless you are starting from scratch. The issues it causes on current day database servers are horrid as well.

But hey, if you've used it maybe it really has caught on ;)


Really Ted. I won't even try to argue with you. I know you're to smart for me. But I know that people won't go into nHibernate is because the learning curve it high at te beginning. But it has lots of benefits not only for one man shops. But like all things it is best to stick with what you know and try to improve. The business needs to make money however you do your job. I use nhib because it lessens the maintance (I support a 1 million loc application and growing ) and I only do this on a halftime basis. Ok I admit I had perfomance problems along the way but nothing that couldn't be fixed and it is opensource so I could look at what it was doing and where I went wrong.

The biggest problem is is that nhib lack documentation on the higher level but you can go for commercial products that don't lack that.

Anyway both are right you just don't know it yet. But don't forget to let me win in august.
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby onpnt on Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 pm

chrissie, the points you made are on track with me and I agree. And you know I'm an idiot. Where did this smart thing come in :lol:
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby AlexCuse on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:14 pm

Chrissie, I've been playing wii golf and my swing is getting under control. You're going down!

Ted, you are absolutely an idiot. You've got to be to associate with the types you find around here :thumright:
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Re: Poll: Your Database in The Cloud??

Postby mrdenny on Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:19 am

You forgot an option. "We are the cloud."

Our app is an ASP (aka Cloud app) for companies, so technically we are the cloud for them.
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